Comments on: State Board of Education Correctly Votes Against Tying TVAASS to Teacher Licensure http://bluffcityed.com/2014/02/01/state-board-of-education-correctly-votes-against-tying-tvaass-to-teacher-licensure/ Educator Driven Commentary on Memphis, Shelby County and Tennessee Education Tue, 11 Mar 2014 02:04:37 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.com/ By: Hunter http://bluffcityed.com/2014/02/01/state-board-of-education-correctly-votes-against-tying-tvaass-to-teacher-licensure/comment-page-1/#comment-701 Wed, 05 Feb 2014 15:23:28 +0000 http://bluffcityed.com/?p=814#comment-701 I do think communication from the Department could be better about informing teachers that the licensure changes go into effect summer 2015, plus anybody that it affects will be even later than that…so that teachers aren’t impacted by exactly the point you raise.

Even though it’s a low bar, the fact that it is in there as a licensure renewal criteria, to me it was almost as if the Department was signaling to teachers that they want them to be cognizant of student growth in their professional practice.

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By: Hunter http://bluffcityed.com/2014/02/01/state-board-of-education-correctly-votes-against-tying-tvaass-to-teacher-licensure/comment-page-1/#comment-700 Wed, 05 Feb 2014 15:17:51 +0000 http://bluffcityed.com/?p=814#comment-700 Would be happy to read them Meghan, please post them in a comment. I will read them with a discerning eye, as I read all sources, including the ones I posted.

“Data” points and developmentally appropriate education are not mutually exclusive, as you seem to argue. I would argue very much the opposite – they can go hand in hand.

I mostly agree with your big picture goal (I think there are more things) about developmentally appropriate education to children. That’s what I care about doing too.

But how do we know it’s working when we zoom in on that big picture and get into the details of the day to day school experience for students?

The only way to know if you’re doing that or not is to evaluate it over time. “Data” points, which could be quantitative or qualitative. Like I said in a previous comment – I think we need a “goldilocks” amount of data collection to inform the practice of teaching to benefit students.

I’m anti-overtesting too, but I’m not anti-test altogether.

How do we know a child can read well by the end of 3rd grade? We can’t just ask him or look at him and determine. If you say a teacher just knows, and can write it down on a report – that’s a data point too, but we could debate about if it is the most meaningful and sound data point we could collect for our big picture goal of developmentally appropriate education.

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By: MeghanK http://bluffcityed.com/2014/02/01/state-board-of-education-correctly-votes-against-tying-tvaass-to-teacher-licensure/comment-page-1/#comment-699 Wed, 05 Feb 2014 13:27:24 +0000 http://bluffcityed.com/?p=814#comment-699 “If we tested less, we’d lose enough data points throughout time to be able to discern statistically reliable student growth.”

What’s more important, the quality of a child’s experience in school, or “data points”? You’re losing sight of the big picture here. We should never sacrifice developmentally appropriate education for “data points.”

I could give YOU many websites that show research into how these value-added scores are unreliable and invalid, but I doubt you would read them.

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By: bluffcityed http://bluffcityed.com/2014/02/01/state-board-of-education-correctly-votes-against-tying-tvaass-to-teacher-licensure/comment-page-1/#comment-695 Wed, 05 Feb 2014 01:43:32 +0000 http://bluffcityed.com/?p=814#comment-695 Thanks for commenting Toni. I agree that I would like to see how the data is calculated than if for no other reason than I want to see the statistical model they use. The data will never be perfect, but I think it should still be one of the many tools we use in concern (not in isolation) to evaluate teachers.

I also think we have too high a data percentage here in TN as a part of our evaluation metric. If I had the power I would lower it to at most 33%.

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By: bluffcityed http://bluffcityed.com/2014/02/01/state-board-of-education-correctly-votes-against-tying-tvaass-to-teacher-licensure/comment-page-1/#comment-694 Wed, 05 Feb 2014 01:41:51 +0000 http://bluffcityed.com/?p=814#comment-694 And we need to do something to move away from the step and ladder and more towards a career ladder approach where pay is rewarded based on achievement and responsibility, not just years in the classroom. Memphis teachers came up with a great policy a couple years ago, but unfortunately it would have cost several million so it was turned down by the board. I actually wrote a post on this earlier last year, check it out here: http://bluffcityed.com/2013/12/04/time-to-pay-up-teacher-compensation-needs-reform/ I’ve actually written several pieces on this (it’s a pet peeve of mine). Check them out under the “Teacher Salaries” category

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By: bluffcityed http://bluffcityed.com/2014/02/01/state-board-of-education-correctly-votes-against-tying-tvaass-to-teacher-licensure/comment-page-1/#comment-693 Wed, 05 Feb 2014 01:39:01 +0000 http://bluffcityed.com/?p=814#comment-693 Thanks for the comment Hunter. I agree that 2 is a fairly low bar to reach. My concern isn’t even with how many people are actually impacted, it’s with the perception that will likely develop as we roll out common core tests next year. Teachers will start seeing their students struggle, and many will struggle themselves with the new standards. Even if their students are doing well, I believe a worst case scenario is that many will feel threatened and withdraw their support for common core. Again, maybe 5 years down the road we could reconsider this policy, but only once the drama over new standards and testing has been resolved.

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By: Hunter http://bluffcityed.com/2014/02/01/state-board-of-education-correctly-votes-against-tying-tvaass-to-teacher-licensure/comment-page-1/#comment-690 Tue, 04 Feb 2014 04:13:06 +0000 http://bluffcityed.com/?p=814#comment-690 I don’t think TVAAS is perfect, but it is better having it than not having it. Don’t let perfect be the enemy of good.

Making a licensure decision based on one year’s TVAAS data point would be crazy. But that’s not the suggested policy. It’s have at least a level 2 on overall TEAM, plus level 2 on growth score for 2 of 3 years to advance to Professional Licensure or renew Professional License. You have multiple years, plus the overall TEAM score is 50% quantitative/50% qualitative.

Level 2 on the growth score is also a weak bar in my opinion (but licensure is meant to be a “minimum” bar mark, not an evaluation mark). Level 2 growth score means only having a growth index score of -2 or better.

The state estimated their new licensure rules would affect 100 to 200 teachers a year for non-renewal. That’s a tiny tiny portion (less than 1/2 of 1%) of the state’s 65,000 teachers.

I suggest two readings that I’ve learned from:

from 2010
http://www.brookings.edu/research/reports/2010/11/17-evaluating-teachers

“ignoring value-added typically lowers the reliability of personnel decisions about teachers” and also want to point out the state doesn’t release individual teacher TVAAS scores publicly.

I will point out that most teacher’s pay in TN is not based on TVAAS scores or your TEAM level score. Still step and ladder.

Test more, ha! (I’m not for testing more, I think it’s about right now) If we tested less, we’d lose enough data points throughout time to be able to discern statistically reliable student growth.
http://www.brookings.edu/blogs/brown-center-chalkboard/posts/2014/01/22-more-testing-whitehurst

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By: Toni Rutledge http://bluffcityed.com/2014/02/01/state-board-of-education-correctly-votes-against-tying-tvaass-to-teacher-licensure/comment-page-1/#comment-688 Mon, 03 Feb 2014 06:46:38 +0000 http://bluffcityed.com/?p=814#comment-688 TVAAS is an unpublished algorithm that has a bases in agricultural research. It in fact was originally designed to predict the output of milk from dairy cows based on the rate of growth of grass. That “obviously” easily translated into an accurate prediction of a students academic ability. What the TVAAS salesmen neglect to include in the sales pitch is that every variable (demographic data point) has an error associated with it. The errors are cumulative, as in you add them all up. Most data predictions by TVAAS have an error parentage of close to 30%. So a 50 could be anywhere from a 20 to an 80. Wow that seems accurate. In addition, the science behind this is fundamentally flawed. In most every scientific experiment you start with a baseline measurement that would provide you with a starting point. Then you would change one variable and measure the effects. Well not only is there no baseline, no – pre-test, but the standards for testing are changing each year. Thus a prediction for a student in geometry based on the results form algebra I have no validity or reliability, especially when we are talking about severe changes in developmental ability to process the standards for algebra I versus geometry.

Not only is the TN DOE fully aware that they are the target of proposed legislation, but they are fully aware that there is now a legal challenge to TVAAS by a very large group of TN teachers. Not only will they have to fully disclose the TVAAS calculations, but they will have to defend it’s calculations and use. From what I understand, there are only a very small handful of people that have this knowledge and only one of them has any educational background.

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By: Meghank http://bluffcityed.com/2014/02/01/state-board-of-education-correctly-votes-against-tying-tvaass-to-teacher-licensure/comment-page-1/#comment-686 Mon, 03 Feb 2014 01:41:52 +0000 http://bluffcityed.com/?p=814#comment-686 By the way, I was criticizing Hunter’s analysis, not bluffcityed’s, which I think was spot-on (although I am against the common core).

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By: Meghank http://bluffcityed.com/2014/02/01/state-board-of-education-correctly-votes-against-tying-tvaass-to-teacher-licensure/comment-page-1/#comment-685 Mon, 03 Feb 2014 01:39:53 +0000 http://bluffcityed.com/?p=814#comment-685 The problem with your analysis is that the TVAAS rating itself is subject to abuse since the formula to calculate that rating hasn’t been publicly revealed.

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